Wow! There is so much to unpack. So my initial take away is that you grew to believe being male was truly the worst thing one could be? I've been saying for years now that it is so hard to find positive messages about men these days. I have loved men - my uncle, my dad, my brother and my husband with my whole heart my whole life and find nothing more amazing than a compassionate and honest and deep man -with all the masculine edges too! How do I help my son to find peace as a male? Are you and the other detrans males thinking of creating content to help young boys before they damage themselves? Those of us parents sure would like some help out here!
Hi Jolene, thanks for reading. That would be such a worthy goal for us detrans men to think of what could encourage young boys to appreciate who they are as boys. I feel that will take a lot of personal work on ourselves to know just what it was WE needed; but we see that too, the lack of positive male role models, and I really hope something of this sort will result from our support groups.
And boy do I wish I had a quick answer to your first question; I really do--so I'm just giving you my thoughts and hopefully something here is helpful.
Yes, somehow my self-image was deeply shaped by the sense that men are the cause of everything bad in the world and that the only redeeming qualities a man has are those which are unlike men. So it's also a bit hard to advise about this. I might say, be aware of the dilemmas he might face here, not necessarily so you can persuade him otherwise, but so you can be more attuned to him. Even when you disagree with his words, being attuned to his emotions and taking him seriously I think is one of the most important ways for him to see he's respected as a boy/man. Shortly before detransitioning, a woman I was friends with had every intention of affirming my chosen identity (not saying you should do this as a parent), but she had some bad memory issues and would honestly forget, yet I couldn't help but see how much she admired certain masculine qualities of mine--something I didn't often see from women. She didn't find those things gross like I did; I even felt fatherly toward her, since she has a lot of health issues, which was weird to me, but I started thinking to myself, "Maybe I'm a masculine woman after all" haha.
I expect, if I begin describing it, some people might say, "What? No one goes around saying all men are evil, gross, etc." but when you're a little boy growing up amid narratives about how historic progress has been held back because of men wanting to hold onto power, even if they have their points, collective narratives like that don't provide a lot of nuance for a child's forming mind. A little boy gets the sense he needs to keep himself out of the way so he doesn't hold everyone else back. I mean, who wants to see /another/ man thriving and being himself? One could react to that with resentment and entitlement, true, and many people are quick to say that's all it is: entitled men jealous now that minorities get a tiny little bit of help and attention. But it's right for every child to want to know they're special and cherished; wanting that doesn't mean he wants to be "coddled" or have all society celebrate him. So there are people who would like to mock any effort to restore a positive image to males. From a young age, a boy may learn that no one wants to hear it, a "privileged male" complaining, so he'd better keep it to himself (/hiding his needs/). (But to the extent I was different in terms of sexuality, gender expression, mental health, then I might receive sympathy.) That's an attachment issue: he KNOWS /in his body/, that no one will be there for him and listen to his distress.
Being aware these things go on helped me begin to separate what people say from reality. But I don't suppose that trying to convince me of that would have seemed attractive when I was already intent on covering over my masculinity to not be "like other guys" - and I feel that's the major gap: how did I get from there to here? It felt like the ways I viewed my maleness were /my own idea/.
Trying to tell such a boy that a boy can be sensitive and caring, and that it's good for him to be assertive too, feels like, "That might be true. But I'm not a boy." That's why I think Laura was very right to direct parents to examine any attachment issues; it may not be simply the bad societal messages, but why he's so vulnerable to them. I'm certainly not judging your or anyone's parenting--I've never been a parent--but this seems like something to consider. From what I hear, it's also why it's important for parents to engage with their own stories and wounds.
I'm guessing you mean your son is already IDing as trans; or maybe you're just concerned about messages he'll eventually pick up. To be sure, he's not gonna take it seriously if anyone pulls a 180 and dismisses all the bad tendencies of men or flatters men. I think it's important to have realistic messages. For example, yes, by far, more violent and sexual crime comes from men. I think that's huge for a lot of trans-IDing males. Many women have very good reasons to not just trust any man they come across, and if a girl/woman you don't know happens to be wary of you, it's not because she's necessarily assuming you're unsafe; it's that she can't just assume you /are/ safe. That doesn't mean you're wrong to feel hurt, especially or if someone really /does/ make an assumption about you, but at least you can start be conscious of it and not internalize it. My parents were both uncomfortable with the topic of sex and didn't tell me much of anything about it--and I didn't want them to. Learning realistic messages about sex in general, I imagine, would be a great safeguard for boys in this way. If he's attracted to females, to know that it's normal for boys sometimes to feel really overwhelming sexual attraction to girls, and that one needs to be respectful and self-controlled and not let physical attraction be mistaken for love, but that those feelings themselves are natural and good and doesn't make him a pervert.
You probably already realize you won't necessarily change him by debating, especially if he's already deeply affected by these messages. But I think you don't have to agree with him to be attuned to his feelings, as you see him struggling to accept himself. Attunement from someone else, especially one's parents, is huge; it re-regulates us when we're dysregulated to just see that someone is with us.
Hope something here has been useful for your efforts and that your son finds his way to love himself as he is. And hope you dont mind the length; I'm currently thinking of how to write about these very things, probably in my next piece. You may have consulted many people and insight too offer me too.
The description of fractional vs integral complementarity in the Hildegard of Bingen link really spoke to me. And considering I have studied John Paul II's theology of the body, it's helpful to have it bring home to me, again, that I am not a "masculine" woman. "Masculine" should only refer to the embodied experience of being a male. "Feminine" should only refer to the embodied experience of being a female. It would be good to be able to get rid of the other usages altogether, but what can you do? You have to used words people can understand, even while continually defining your terms.
I'm not trans -- I'm much too old for that to have affected me at a point in my life where it might have been attractive. But as a woman who is often seen as "masculine", it is important, I think, to point out that when "masculinity" as a whole is seen as inherently toxic to women, it also makes it hard for a woman to embrace her own "masculine" traits.
But "fractional complementarity is definitely NOT the healthiest way to acknowledge real differences.
Hey Mary, glad you found Favale's article helpful. Yes, I thought that was a very helpful distinction, since I'd heard people use the word complementarity in such different ways. I guess I came into the idea from a JPII kinda perspective from the start, but then I'd hear others, usually Protestants, describe a kind of complementarity that they rejected as sexist - so now I see why I guess.
But yeah like you say, even if it's a good way of speaking about it, it's not easy to use if people are used to thinking of "masculinity" and "femininity" as meaning something totally different. So I've linked that article in a couple of my pieces, so if people think I'm using the words "masculinity" and "femininity" in too serious a way, I can just say, "Read that article and hopefully it'll explain what I mean" haha. So I'm glad that's reached someone. Thanks for reading! And thanks so much for your kind support btw!!
Thanks for your honesty and vulnerability, Njada. It would be so much easier to hide behind an identity group orthodoxy. Please check out my writing and share with friends and followers if it’s of any value. My writing helps me think too.
Wow! There is so much to unpack. So my initial take away is that you grew to believe being male was truly the worst thing one could be? I've been saying for years now that it is so hard to find positive messages about men these days. I have loved men - my uncle, my dad, my brother and my husband with my whole heart my whole life and find nothing more amazing than a compassionate and honest and deep man -with all the masculine edges too! How do I help my son to find peace as a male? Are you and the other detrans males thinking of creating content to help young boys before they damage themselves? Those of us parents sure would like some help out here!
Hi Jolene, thanks for reading. That would be such a worthy goal for us detrans men to think of what could encourage young boys to appreciate who they are as boys. I feel that will take a lot of personal work on ourselves to know just what it was WE needed; but we see that too, the lack of positive male role models, and I really hope something of this sort will result from our support groups.
And boy do I wish I had a quick answer to your first question; I really do--so I'm just giving you my thoughts and hopefully something here is helpful.
Yes, somehow my self-image was deeply shaped by the sense that men are the cause of everything bad in the world and that the only redeeming qualities a man has are those which are unlike men. So it's also a bit hard to advise about this. I might say, be aware of the dilemmas he might face here, not necessarily so you can persuade him otherwise, but so you can be more attuned to him. Even when you disagree with his words, being attuned to his emotions and taking him seriously I think is one of the most important ways for him to see he's respected as a boy/man. Shortly before detransitioning, a woman I was friends with had every intention of affirming my chosen identity (not saying you should do this as a parent), but she had some bad memory issues and would honestly forget, yet I couldn't help but see how much she admired certain masculine qualities of mine--something I didn't often see from women. She didn't find those things gross like I did; I even felt fatherly toward her, since she has a lot of health issues, which was weird to me, but I started thinking to myself, "Maybe I'm a masculine woman after all" haha.
I expect, if I begin describing it, some people might say, "What? No one goes around saying all men are evil, gross, etc." but when you're a little boy growing up amid narratives about how historic progress has been held back because of men wanting to hold onto power, even if they have their points, collective narratives like that don't provide a lot of nuance for a child's forming mind. A little boy gets the sense he needs to keep himself out of the way so he doesn't hold everyone else back. I mean, who wants to see /another/ man thriving and being himself? One could react to that with resentment and entitlement, true, and many people are quick to say that's all it is: entitled men jealous now that minorities get a tiny little bit of help and attention. But it's right for every child to want to know they're special and cherished; wanting that doesn't mean he wants to be "coddled" or have all society celebrate him. So there are people who would like to mock any effort to restore a positive image to males. From a young age, a boy may learn that no one wants to hear it, a "privileged male" complaining, so he'd better keep it to himself (/hiding his needs/). (But to the extent I was different in terms of sexuality, gender expression, mental health, then I might receive sympathy.) That's an attachment issue: he KNOWS /in his body/, that no one will be there for him and listen to his distress.
Being aware these things go on helped me begin to separate what people say from reality. But I don't suppose that trying to convince me of that would have seemed attractive when I was already intent on covering over my masculinity to not be "like other guys" - and I feel that's the major gap: how did I get from there to here? It felt like the ways I viewed my maleness were /my own idea/.
Trying to tell such a boy that a boy can be sensitive and caring, and that it's good for him to be assertive too, feels like, "That might be true. But I'm not a boy." That's why I think Laura was very right to direct parents to examine any attachment issues; it may not be simply the bad societal messages, but why he's so vulnerable to them. I'm certainly not judging your or anyone's parenting--I've never been a parent--but this seems like something to consider. From what I hear, it's also why it's important for parents to engage with their own stories and wounds.
I'm guessing you mean your son is already IDing as trans; or maybe you're just concerned about messages he'll eventually pick up. To be sure, he's not gonna take it seriously if anyone pulls a 180 and dismisses all the bad tendencies of men or flatters men. I think it's important to have realistic messages. For example, yes, by far, more violent and sexual crime comes from men. I think that's huge for a lot of trans-IDing males. Many women have very good reasons to not just trust any man they come across, and if a girl/woman you don't know happens to be wary of you, it's not because she's necessarily assuming you're unsafe; it's that she can't just assume you /are/ safe. That doesn't mean you're wrong to feel hurt, especially or if someone really /does/ make an assumption about you, but at least you can start be conscious of it and not internalize it. My parents were both uncomfortable with the topic of sex and didn't tell me much of anything about it--and I didn't want them to. Learning realistic messages about sex in general, I imagine, would be a great safeguard for boys in this way. If he's attracted to females, to know that it's normal for boys sometimes to feel really overwhelming sexual attraction to girls, and that one needs to be respectful and self-controlled and not let physical attraction be mistaken for love, but that those feelings themselves are natural and good and doesn't make him a pervert.
You probably already realize you won't necessarily change him by debating, especially if he's already deeply affected by these messages. But I think you don't have to agree with him to be attuned to his feelings, as you see him struggling to accept himself. Attunement from someone else, especially one's parents, is huge; it re-regulates us when we're dysregulated to just see that someone is with us.
Hope something here has been useful for your efforts and that your son finds his way to love himself as he is. And hope you dont mind the length; I'm currently thinking of how to write about these very things, probably in my next piece. You may have consulted many people and insight too offer me too.
The description of fractional vs integral complementarity in the Hildegard of Bingen link really spoke to me. And considering I have studied John Paul II's theology of the body, it's helpful to have it bring home to me, again, that I am not a "masculine" woman. "Masculine" should only refer to the embodied experience of being a male. "Feminine" should only refer to the embodied experience of being a female. It would be good to be able to get rid of the other usages altogether, but what can you do? You have to used words people can understand, even while continually defining your terms.
I'm not trans -- I'm much too old for that to have affected me at a point in my life where it might have been attractive. But as a woman who is often seen as "masculine", it is important, I think, to point out that when "masculinity" as a whole is seen as inherently toxic to women, it also makes it hard for a woman to embrace her own "masculine" traits.
But "fractional complementarity is definitely NOT the healthiest way to acknowledge real differences.
Hey Mary, glad you found Favale's article helpful. Yes, I thought that was a very helpful distinction, since I'd heard people use the word complementarity in such different ways. I guess I came into the idea from a JPII kinda perspective from the start, but then I'd hear others, usually Protestants, describe a kind of complementarity that they rejected as sexist - so now I see why I guess.
But yeah like you say, even if it's a good way of speaking about it, it's not easy to use if people are used to thinking of "masculinity" and "femininity" as meaning something totally different. So I've linked that article in a couple of my pieces, so if people think I'm using the words "masculinity" and "femininity" in too serious a way, I can just say, "Read that article and hopefully it'll explain what I mean" haha. So I'm glad that's reached someone. Thanks for reading! And thanks so much for your kind support btw!!
Hi! And now, you've reached even more people. Checking back to let you know that your info on Favale and your comment that sensitive =/= feminine were part of what led me to write this guest post: https://accordingtohoyt.com/2023/09/14/fractions-vs-integers-a-guest-post-by-maryh10000
Hi Mary, awesome, thanks!
Thanks for your honesty and vulnerability, Njada. It would be so much easier to hide behind an identity group orthodoxy. Please check out my writing and share with friends and followers if it’s of any value. My writing helps me think too.